[October 15, 2002] After tonight’s meeting I had a debate with a friend of mine (the only other Objectivist on this list)
I took the opposite position of the one I held tonight and played devils advocate as he tried to prove why theft is always wrong.
Take a look, and skip to the bottom if it gets boring.
--David
GreedyCapitalist: Give me a solid proof of why theft is always self-detrimental
RedRyan3523: First of all it may be wise to consult textbooks on
egoism/altruism. They seem to say that both egoism and altruism say that you shouldn't
steal or do something against other people, but where they disagree is whether
it's wrong to refrain from doing something for other people. I've been thinking
on the subject and think I've come up with an idea.
RedRyan3523: Your self-interest is your health and happiness. Happiness
can only be achieved in a certain way, and it's in the nature of happiness that
you refrain from theft. You don’t refrain from theft because you care about the
other guy, you refrain from theft for your own selfish reasons.
RedRyan3523: So all it has to be demonstrated is that by the nature of
happiness and logic, and then it follows that theft is detrimental.
GreedyCapitalist: how?
RedRyan3523: also one can't have the value of pride if he steals.
Altruism neglects this aspect of man's character.
GreedyCapitalist: Can't you be proud of
being the best in your business (thievery)?
RedRyan3523: can you be proud of how many women you have sex with in a
short period of time?
GreedyCapitalist: sure, why not?
RedRyan3523: what is the character of such a person?
RedRyan3523: is he really happy?
RedRyan3523: Happiness is dependent upon self-esteem. That which hurts
self-esteem hurts happiness. Self-esteem entails self-reliance.
RedRyan3523: So while you may gain what you steal, you lose some degree
of self-esteem because you aren't being self-reliant.
GreedyCapitalist: why does self esteem
entail self reliance?
GreedyCapitalist: can’t you have high
esteem in your ability to steal?
RedRyan3523: Stealing only seems attractive because you are only taking
under consideration material values.
GreedyCapitalist: oh?
GreedyCapitalist: why can't you be
satisfied by material values alone?
RedRyan3523: It's not in your nature.
RedRyan3523: Man needs material to maintain homeostasis, but he will be
little more than a vegetable unless he has other values.
GreedyCapitalist: why can't he get those
materials by theft?
RedRyan3523: that neglects his non-material values.
GreedyCapitalist: why does he have to
fulfill them [non material values] to be happy?
RedRyan3523: it all falls back on self-esteem and its relationship to
happiness and self-reliance and its relationship to self-esteem.
RedRyan3523: Feelings of helplessness are common symptoms of depression.
GreedyCapitalist: you still haven't tied
self reliance and self esteem
RedRyan3523: It seems there's a relationship between self-esteem and
competence, i.e. self-reliance.
RedRyan3523: Depression feeds on incompetence, and one's evaluation of
oneself is dependent upon what a person can do.
RedRyan3523: In other words, happiness is not independent of the path
through which you try to achieve it.
GreedyCapitalist: ok, but why can't you
feel competent at thievery?
RedRyan3523: self-reliance entails dealing with reality independent of
an agent. Theft is dependence.
GreedyCapitalist: ok, but why is
self-reliance so important to self-esteem?
RedRyan3523: You judge how well you do on a test by how much you got right.
Your evaluation of yourself entails a standard by which to evaluate. An
evaluation of a particular entity entails a particular standard by which to
judge that entity. Self-reliance is that standard.
GreedyCapitalist: why is it the only
possible standard?
GreedyCapitalist: maybe you could have a
standard of other-reliance, i.e. altruism
RedRyan3523: Evaluation of a particular entity entails evaluation by a
particular standard. You don't judge how well you did on a test by the same
standard as how you would judge how ell you did building something. The
standard of evaluation goes hand in hand with what you are evaluating. Altruism
entails assuming that one's self is worthless, so that in particular can't be
used as a standard.
GreedyCapitalist: but you are saying that
actions can only be evaluated by one standard -- self-reliance. Why are other
standards not applicable?
RedRyan3523: Like you can only evaluate particular things according to
the nature of the thing being evaluated, you can only evaluate people by a
particular standard. How much is a person worth to you? That depends on what he
can do for you and how well he can do it.
RedRyan3523: There may also be characteristics of character people may
have to be worth something. What qualities do you find attractive in others?
Ability and character are the standards by which you judge others, so those two
are the standards by which you evaluate yourself.
GreedyCapitalist: I see
GreedyCapitalist: Going back to the thief,
I think you correctly point out the necessity of self-reliance for self esteem
-- which is itself necessary for happiness
GreedyCapitalist: The nature of humans is
such that they must be productive to survive, and being a thief violates that
nature
GreedyCapitalist: One may confuse true productivity
with proclivity in crime, but that will only worsen the thief’s reliance on
others labor for his welfare
GreedyCapitalist: he cannot escape that
fact because reality is such that if you are not producing your own daily
sustenance, you are taking it from others
GreedyCapitalist: The professional thief lives a life that goes against the objective requirements needed for a human being to provide for his own sustenance, and as long as he obtains his sustenance by stealing from others, he cannot have any self-esteem. The same thing can be seen in lifelong welfare recipients and mooching bureaucrats. They may hide from that fact, but they cannot avoid it, and that fact probably account for why most of them are losers who are often depressed, don’t amount to much in life, and are afraid to get a real job that doesn’t involve stealing from others hard work